Thinking of going abroad?
Over 11,000 Scouts travel abroad from the United Kingdom each year to take part in camps, international events, exchanges, tours and expeditions.
Some of these Scouts travel with commercial travel companies, or as part of a package organised by a Scout County, District or Group.
This can be particularly valuable to groups venturing abroad for the first time, as the organisers of the package undertake most of the detailed planning and arrangements, including perhaps optional activities, excursions or other programme content.
Whether a seasoned international traveller, or nervously considering your first Scouting Adventure away from these shores, you will find people willing to help you. Before you start planning contact the International programme team by email international@leicestershirescouts.org.uk you’ll receive a brief introduction letter which will let you consider – why you are thinking of going abroad, the purpose of your visit, you’re intended programme and what the group will gain from the experience.
The letter will also provide information about some of the many opportunities Scouting has to offer abroad, details of sources of information/options to inspire you and pointers regarding programme, travel, budget and funding. Even if you are only curious, it’s a simple starting point and has to be worth an email.
Visits Abroad with Scouting
POR Rule 9.3 covers going on a Visit’s Abroad with Scouting and outlines a process to follow which applies to both trips with young people and adult only trips through Scouting.
If you’re planning a trip for Beavers and Cubs then Colony and Pack Visits Abroad has a lot of helpful information that will aid with the planning.
There are lots of people with international Scouting experience to guide and support you on your journey if you have any concerns of questions. These include:
Our international programme team supports you through your visit abroad process, ensuring you have everything in place and making sure it gets approved by the relevant Commissioner. They can also notify Scouts in your host country that you’ll be arriving and issue you with a letter of introduction.
Headquarters: receive your visit abroad notification from the international programme team after it has been approved by the relevant Commissioner. This ensures headquarters know where UK Scouts are in the world and can offer support and assistance if needed.
Relevant Commissioner: approves your visit abroad, confirming that it’s planned in line with TSA rules and guidance.
International opportunities is a list of international Scout camps, events and expeditions happening all over the world which you could consider taking a group of young people to. This is updated bi-monthly.
Visits Abroad - Driving Abroad - Minibuses/Trailers/Vans
Since Brexit, there’ve been significant changes to the rules for driving minibuses and towing trailers in Europe. If any groups are planning to travel abroad, please check the current rules for driving in the country you will be travelling to and any country you pass through.
You’ll need to consider this as part of their planning, and in most cases, it might not be practical to drive minibuses or use trailers.
For some trips and groups this may have a huge impact if you are not aware. If you have any specific questions about the above please do email me on international@leicestershirescouts.org.uk I will try to support with information or obtain advice from colleagues.
Richard Coppock
County Programme Team – International, Leicestershire Scouts
(Assistant County Commissioner – International)
Minibuses
The short version is that at this point we don’t believe it is possible for the majority of Scout Trips to use Scout owned/Leader driven minibuses in trips to mainland Europe & The Republic of Ireland (The EU).
The slightly longer version: after Brexit, and once everything came out in the wash with the various negotiations, minibus transport between the UK and the EU member states fell under the UN’s 1968 Vienna Treaty & The Interbus Agreement. These don’t include rights for what are known as “own-account services” (basically groups running occasional bus trips for their own members). After trawling through many government websites and speaking to a number of people in DfT, DVLA, DVSA and ultimately the International Road Freight Office they have confirmed:
- Please be aware a number of .gov.uk sites are out of date.
- That to take a minibus abroad you have one of 2 options:
- Apply for an Operator’s Licence (https://www.gov.uk/psv-operator-licences/how-to-apply-for-a-psv-licence) and then once granted, you can buy a journey form from the Confederation for Passenger Transport (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/run-international-bus-or-coach-services-and-tours#get-documents-to-run-occasional-services) – This is the same licence Stagecoach, National Express etc. need to be able to operate. It takes up to 7 weeks and requires that the journey operator prove they have enough money to run their business (guidelines being £8,000 ringfenced for the first vehicle they own and £4,500 for every subsequent vehicle (to cover maintenance etc.)), has facilities and arrangements for maintenance, has an operating centre and can prove Professional Competence of their drivers. NB: going down this route will require the group to surrender any Section 19 permits.
- Contact a third party operator, who already hold a PSV Operator’s Licence, who will need to apply for a journey form themselves. – Basically hiring a coach with drivers – IRFO did say that in theory a PSV operator could possibly hire out a vehicle and maybe issue the paperwork if their drivers weren’t on the trip, essentially hiring out the vehicle, but the risk and the fact that’s not been confirmed in court means they wouldn’t recommend that to a PSV operator as it would risk their license to operate in the UK and abroad.
This is further backed up by The Confederation of Passenger Transport (who issue the Interbus forms on behalf of the UK Government):
“There is no automatic right to undertake international journeys by Bus, Coach or Minibus and therefore the journey will either need to be liberalised under an international agreement or be given a prior authorisation. For UK based operators journeys are liberalised under the Interbus agreement. Interbus allows for International PSV operations by holders of a Standard International Operator licence. There is no authorisation under the agreement for own account or private journeys by anyone who does not hold an operator licence”.
Just to head off some question you may ask:
- If it’s a 9 seater (driver + 8 passengers) then it’s a car and you’re fine, none of the above applies.
- If it’s a minibus and you take seats out (so there are only 8 passenger seats) it’s still a minibus and the above applies until you get it “replated” by DVSA (a process involving making it impossible to refit the extra seats and would result in changes to the tax bands of the vehicle).
- If there are no passengers/8 or less passengers in the vehicle but its paperwork says it’s a minibus then it’s still a minibus.
- Section 19 minibus permit does not apply abroad.
- Your journey abroad will be classed as “for hire or reward” under the PSV operator licensing.
For the purpose of PSV operator licensing, ‘hire or reward’ is defined as any payment in cash or kind which gives a person the right to be carried, regardless of whether or not that right is exercised. It is also regardless of whether or not a profit is made.
Visits Abroad - Trailers
This is much better news than minibuses but still something for those signing off international trips to be aware of.
Again, a post-Brexit consequence that trailers used for hire or reward (and it is accepted that Scouting would come under this) with a Maximum Authorised Mass of over 750kg (basically any trailer with its own braking system – this will cover some large box trailers etc.) needs to be registered to take it abroad – at a cost of £26. Please also note that the combined weight of a “goods vehicle” and trailer (Gross Train Weight) cannot exceed 2,500kg
See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trailer-registration for more details.
Visits Abroad - Transport of Kit by vehicle in the EU
Vehicles carrying only kit to the EU (vans, lorries and cars with trailers).
The legislation states: You will … need a [Goods Vehicle Operating] licence if you carry goods for hire or reward on international journeys when using a vehicle (or a vehicle combination) with a maximum laden weight of more than 2.5 tonnes.
As per the minibuses it is the “For Hire” bit that is really relevant here and unfortunately there is no black and white legal definition of it (and as such when it has come to court a VERY broad view has been taken); the accepted definition boils down to “has any money (or promise of services) changed hands at any point that has caused this journey to happen?” and as a private membership organisation the answer is invariably “yes” (if capitation hadn’t been paid then there would be no trip). Additionally in our situations if the participants hadn’t paid to go on the trip then the trip wouldn’t be happening and then journey would not be required so money has changed hands for the journey to happen.
In short this means that for a trip using a van the MAM of the Van must be 2,500kg or less (some Ford Transit Connects are exactly 2,500kg for example) and larger vehicles or lorries would require an International Goods Vehicle Operating Licence. If they are using a trailer then the Gross Train Weight of the vehicle and trailer cannot be over 2,500kg. This may mean that some trips need to look at changing vehicles, pallets and couriers.
NB: Even if you are within the 2,500kg or less you will still need to consider ATA Carnets. The limit for journeys solely in the UK for a goods vehicle is (broadly) 3,500kg and this may impact some no international plans.
A succinct source on the international elements: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transport-goods-in-and-out-of-the-uk-using-vans-or-car-and-trailers-from-21-may-2022
Broader context including the UK impacts: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transport-goods-in-and-out-of-the-uk-using-vans-or-car-and-trailers-from-21-may-2022